[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hello everybody, and welcome to the unveiling. My name is Mark, and along with my partner Ajay, we'll be pulling back the curtain on the one true gospel. We are so glad you joined us today. So let's dive right in. Welcome everybody to the unveiling. It's great to be back together again this week. I've got my partner in the gospel, Ajay, here with me. How you doing today, Ajay? [00:00:34] Speaker B: Doing pretty good, Mark, how about you? [00:00:36] Speaker A: Pretty good. And I am really excited to be back with our listeners today. As we look back kind of at the last four weeks, we've done a series on law and grace that ended up being four part. I think we probably thought we were going to do it in one episode at the beginning, but some, some of these subjects are so rich and so deep and so life changing and there's so much great scripture to support them that you just lose yourself in them. And boy, do I love losing myself in the gospel. So it's been a good four weeks Today. We want to do what we do from time to time, which we call the Crucible. It's just a freeform conversation. We put less, I don't want to say research, but normally on a normal week, we're spending a ton of time in the Word and reading other theologians and books and doing whatever it takes to prepare for that subject. And when we do the crucibles, we do it, but for me, I do it in a different way. I just spend the week meditating on whatever that freeform conversation is going to be about. So it's a little more free flowing, a little more hopefully led by the spirit of Christ within us. And that's what we're going to do today. Wanted to say a word about the crucible before we start. We call it the Crucible because if you know anything about chemistry from high school chemistry, you would have a porcelain dish over a Bunsen burner and you would put stuff inside of it. And the idea was to heat it up enough to boil off and remove all the impurities so that all you're left with is a pure substance. And that's what we love to do with the gospel because unfortunately, throughout the ages and the centuries, mankind has tried to add to that gospel with things that are not scripturally based. And we're just trying to strain and filter and purify those things out so that we are left with Jesus Christ and him crucified, the pure message of God's grace, which is the gospel. And you know, Ajay, I Did a little. I like to sometimes look things up in a dictionary, and when I read crucible, one of the definitions, it's a device for testing something under extreme heat. It's a severe test. And what I also read was that the word crucible, coincidentally or not, comes from the word cross, because the cross was Christ's ultimate test, which he thankfully completely passed 100% on our behalf. And that's why the Gospel's so powerful. But isn't that pretty interesting? The crucible comes from the word cross. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark, you know, that's what I thought when you said test. The cross is the ultimate test. And in fact, it also reminds me. Reminded me. Right. You know, before the cross, the Lord said, you know, father, if it is your will, take this cup away from me, you know, but, you know, thy will be done. Right. So interesting. That is also a cup. So, yeah, I think it all aligns. Yeah. [00:03:48] Speaker A: So that's cool. So we're gonna. Let's jump in now, Ajay. So we just had four episodes. The first three were really law, with little lights of grace here and there. And then four, we did the transition to grace, which is really kind of a cool word, transition, because that was one of the main points that Paul tried to teach especially well throughout his epistles. But in Second Corinthians 3, he talked about the fact that the Old Covenant law is a transitory ministry. One of my pictures I like to think of is a big Saturn V rocket taking off to get into space, to be able to get out of the gravity of this earth. There's a first stage, and once that stage is empty and has done its job, it's meant to jettison off and fall away so that now the rest of the craft is free, unhindered, to soar into space. And that's exactly what the Old Covenant was. It's meant to take us from one place to another. It's meant to take us from condemnation and wrath and sin and death into Christ, into the new covenant in his blood. The message of grace. On that note, we're just going to talk a little bit about the fact that. The way I thought about it this week, Ajay, is that the Apostle Paul spent a huge amount of time, space, and real estate within his epistles building a wall between works and grace. This wall is impenetrable, insurmountable, and you can't scale over it because those two things are not meant to come together. There's not a door in the middle where you can open it up. And the Two mix together. So I just wanted to talk about the wall that Paul has built for us scripturally and that we've talked about over the last four weeks. And I think did, if I do say so myself, a pretty good job of presenting that case through Scripture. So I'll throw it over to you, Najay, and tell me your impressions of the last four weeks. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark. Yeah. Like you said, you know, we started with law and grace and we went to four episodes, I think now kind of doing the fifth one on the same thing. So that says that, you know, how important this topic is because, you know, we as human beings, we are naturally inclined to the law. Like I said before, every religion, right, you know, they know the law, right? They think, you know, the only way they can attain heaven or win favor with God or be joined to God is through works. Because everyone knows that there's something wrong with us, right? So there are two things that goes on simultaneously. One is we have to somehow redeem or pay for our sins, right? And the second is do enough good works. So people are simultaneously doing these two things, trying to get some forgiveness or get forgiveness or pay the penalty for their sins or somehow be redeemed from their sins. And the second one is somehow do enough good works, right, to attain to righteousness so that they can get the blessings of God, eternal life. So they all have a sense of this, but nobody understands grace, you know, except through the Holy Spirit. You know, that's why it's very important. And I also wanted to touch on the wall that you said, Mark, you know, the huge wall between law and grace. You know, I am reminded of the, you know, especially in India and here also, like, you know, when you visit these historical places ruled by kings, you know, they have these forts, very big, large forts. There's a big wall. And interestingly, you know, before the wall, there's also a big hole, like a chasm they dig and put water so that, you know, the enemies cannot just directly get to the wall. They first have to swim through the water and then get to the wall. So I think, you know, there's a big wall and there's also a big chasm between law and grace. So they both, you know, cannot mix at all. [00:08:13] Speaker A: And I think that chasm is filled with alligators and crocodiles too. Definitely dangerous in trying to get across that from grace to works is not a good idea. So, you know, Ajay, one of the things for me it's been about, oh, I don't know, maybe 14 years ago, after being a believer for probably close to 30 years, when I had the revelation of what the one true gospel was, for many years I lived in what we call a mixture. It's really just legalism though, because as the Apostle Paul says, that if you add one work now you are obligated to do them all. So once I came to that understanding of the one true gospel, it opened up scripture to me. Like I can't even tell you because now, if you will, I'm seeing it through the lens of grace, through the lens of the gospel and things that used to look very legalistic and works oriented that were just trying to get me to try harder, now I see them through grace. And one of those things is the scripture that you just spurred up in me in your last little segment there, Ajay. There's a scripture that says there's a way that seems right to a man, but only leads to destruction. I'm paraphrasing it. And for many years I thought that was sin, that, hey, sin seems right. But now I see it through the gospel, I'm like, wait a minute, sin doesn't seem right. Most of us know when we're doing wrong. There are people in this world that have a seared conscience that don't know right or wrong anymore. But I think the vast majority of people, no matter what world religion you're under, whether you're an atheist, you, you know, when you've done wrong, it doesn't seem right to you because most of us have a conscience. So when I look at it through the gospel, I see the way that seems right is following the rules, is me working harder. Self improvement. This is the way that the whole world lives by trying, as the Bible calls it, trying to earn your own righteousness, having people think you're good and having yourself think you're good. But when I really look at it, it's the law that seems right to a man. And that's only going to lead you to shame, guilt and condemnation. [00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah. In fact, Mark, you know, I am reminded of another scripture when you said that in Isaiah 55, 8, it says, for my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways. My ways, says the Lord. Again, I think people immediately, you know, default to sin. Right? You know, oh, it's our way of sinning. And God's way is holiness. But again, I think it's talking about the way of salvation. Right. The whole Bible throughout the, you know, all of Old Testament is primarily about salvation through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Right. So because it says in Timothy, it says, you know, the scriptures are given for making us wise unto salvation through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. So the way of God here, you know, if you closely look at it, my thoughts are not your thoughts nor my ways are your ways. And we know that the way of grace, way of the Lord is grace, right? Grace and truth came through our Lord Jesus Christ. But many people do not think that this way, you know, my ways or God's ways, the law, right? You know, they try to attain righteousness through works of the law. But God's thought and God's ways are ways of grace, ways of mercy and ways of kindness, not the ways of the law. [00:12:08] Speaker A: One of the things from our past episodes that I love that you said one of your ajayisms was a litmus test for the church you go to. If you're sitting there and they're talking about what you must do instead of what Christ has done, they're not preaching the gospel there. And I love that kind of a solid litmus test. [00:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Mark, you know, I almost feel like if you listen to an average sermon, they have Jesus, but most of it is about what we have to do, right, you know, based on what Jesus did. You know, sometimes I feel like, you know, it's like Jesus on the sidelines. He's not in the center. Yeah, Jesus is there, but he's on the side. Okay, let's talk about what we have to do. And in the end, okay, we'll mention in Jesus name, but many people, they don't really focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, the cross and, and the finished work. And it does take in Hebrews. It says, you know, the word of righteousness, right, that we are talking about, which is the gospel. To preach the gospel and the gospel of grace and focus on our Lord Jesus Christ. It's not easy. It says, you know, it's called strong meat. That's what the Bible says. You know, strong meat belongs to mature Christians, right? For baby Christians, they cannot preach the word of righteousness. So it's much easier to just give some kind of a motivation speech or talk about all the things that you have to do for Christ and, you know, nothing wrong with that, right? You know, going and preaching the gospel is a great thing, but the real meat is in explaining Christ, right? Showing us what the gospel means. Death, burial and resurrection, and the riches of the glory of our inheritance in Christ. When we do that, you know, we, you know, no one told us now, right, now go do the podcast, right? You know, but we can't hold back, but to go and talk about Lord Jesus Christ. So the more we lift up Lord Jesus Christ, the more we are automatically going and preach about him. To be honest, you know, it doesn't really need a lot of motivation, like, oh, Christ did so much for you. What can you do for him? You don't need to do all that. You just preach Christ and him crucified and the gospel spills out of our hearts. Like you said, those of us with [00:14:37] Speaker A: kids, we did not have kids to get them to do things for us, did we? In fact, they're more work than what their help is, because how can a little kid. Daddy, let me help you. You know, when I used to do projects around the house when my little boy was three, I would let him hold the screwdriver as whatever the project I was. But he's not really helping me. He's there to be with me, to learn from me, and to be in relationship with me. We had kids to love them, not to get them to love us, not to get them to work for us. And that's what I love about how Jesus talks so much. Well, he was the first person in scripture to say that we can call God our Father. And beyond that, he said we can call him Abba, which means Daddy. That's the kind of relationship he wants. And a daddy is not trying to get his kids to work for him. He's not trying to do everything he can to get them to love him. He wants to love them and do for them. And that's what Christ did for us. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Mark, you know, again, I think like you said, you know, end of the day, you know, I was thinking this morning, I think we can do another podcast on this, right? What is the. What is the purpose of our salvation? And why did God create us? Right? And why did God redeem us? You know, many people think, you know, God created us for glory, and a lot of Christians think that, and it's normal and in the sense that, you know, he just created us so that we can praise him and all day long and we can worship him and, you know, it's like almost God getting an ego boost, right, from all our praises. Imagine, you know, if an earthly father says, hey, you know, I just had you so that, you know, you can praise me all day long and how, you know, how bad it sounds. But, you know, we don't think. But we attribute all these things that we as humans would be repulsive to God. So, yeah, so if you look at Ephesians chapter one, it Says, you know, he created us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ. Right. So the purpose of God is like, you know, have a big family. That's why he created us, just we through Jesus Christ, we are a big family. God our father and Christ our elder brother. And by the Holy Spirit, we all are one family. That's what, you know, God created us for. And in the Old Testament, God had several names, like Jehovah, you know, El Shaddai. Right. Jehovah, Shamma and Adonai. Yeah, There are many names. They are all great names for God, but the real name, God, our Lord Jesus Christ, came to reveal to us or introduce to us. It is there in the Old Testament, here and there, sprinkled. But the real name that God wanted to reveal himself to us by his Father. That's what our Lord Jesus Christ revealed to us. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Great point. So, yeah, you're right, Ajay. We did not have kids so that we could have someone to praise us all day long. That's why we got married. Yeah, yeah, right. I don't think Ajay caught that one right away, but just a little spousal levity. So, anyway, so that's a great point, Ajay. And you really encapsulated the gospel in that. And that's the message that needs to go out to people. I think people are sponges just waiting to soak that up. Waiting to soak Christ up and his goodness and his spirit. And one of the things that is most dangerous about the mixed message of legalism and adding things to that perfect gospel is that it's not always blatant. Much of the time it's very subtle. The way you put it was someone giving a motivational speech with Jesus on the sidelines. One of the ways I communicate, that is, you'll go into a church and the message will have a thin veneer of Christ on it. They'll use some Christian words and they'll mention him here and there. But really, the main gist of the whole message is just motivational. Getting you to try to clean up your life, to be a better dad, to be a better husband, to do this better, to give more to the church, to serve more. Fill in the blank with a Christian veneer on the outside of it. That's not what it's meant to be. It's supposed to be Jesus Christ and him crucified, as we like to say Jesus all the time. And because it's so subtle, a lot of times people can sit in church for year after year after year and not know that there's something more. That's what I did. And I was a worship pastor in churches. And until I had the revelation of that one true gospel, I thought that's all there was to Christianity, was this church experience. I need to memorize so much scripture. I need to give my 10%. I got to stop doing that sin again and again, you know, and that's not. When Christ said that whom the sun sets free is free indeed. And when Paul said, it's for freedom that Christ set us free, that's the last thing I felt during that stage of my life was freedom. [00:20:15] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Mark, you know, I was thinking, most of the churches, you know, again, you know, I don't want to badmouth anybody, but in general, when I listen to some of the churches outside of the one that I go to is either it is like sin consciousness, right? You know, telling people you're sinning, you're sinning, you know, you're not living up to who you are, and then constantly trying to guilt them to do better their lives or clean up their lives. And the other one is more on the, you know, how to, like you said. Yeah. How to be a good husband, how to be a good steward. Right. You know, how to do this, how to do that, how to be a good testimony. Like, you know, they all sound good on the surface, but if you really think about it, right, even unbelievers can have the same thing. Even other religions can have the same thing. It's not rocket science to tell people, hey, you know, don't cheat on your wife. You know, don't waste your money. Right. We are not saying, you know, go and do all those things. But that's not the point. The point of the gospel is our Lord Jesus Christ. The more you reveal our Lord Jesus Christ, the more we talk about the riches of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, the more you focus on Christ himself, then the other things are just like, by products. You know, the real joy and peace and life is in knowing Christ because Christ himself is life. And the life in Christ is ministered to us through the words of the gospel. That's why, you know, the focus has to be our Lord Jesus Christ. [00:21:55] Speaker A: Yeah, perfect. And as we like to say, it's the how of things. Yes. We're not saying those are obviously good things, as you just pointed out, but how do I accomplish those? Do I go and sit in front of a pastor that teaches me, that gives me strategies and cheers me on, encourages me, guilts me, shames me, condemns Me, if I'm not doing those things, or do I turn my eyes to Christ? And one of the great things that came out of the last four weeks is as you and I went back and forth with Scripture, we realize that scripture does not tell us to produce fruit. It tells us to bear fruit. The spirit of Christ in us produces fruit. The vine produces fruit. We simply remain in the vine and then we bear this fruit. And this fruit is the works that in Ephesians 2, Paul tells us God has prepared in advance for us to do. He says we were created in Christ Jesus to do these works and that we are God's handiwork. We don't work on ourselves and we don't have. It's not a pastor's job to work on us. We are God's handiwork. And the only works we do are the fruit we bear. And it's the fruit of the Spirit, not us. It's God that produces it in us. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark, that's a great point. Again, if you think in terms of producing, again, how can we produce, right? The only thing we can do is be the branches and just bear the fruit. I pulled up Galatians chapter 5 22, where it talks about the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such there is no law. Again, you know, if you think about this, right, all the fruit is the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's not so much, you know, of course, you know, when you have this fruit or you have this nature, you do good things for others, right? You go and help people and you do all kinds of good works externally, but the fruit itself is actually, it's what, you know, what's happening inside. That's what it's describing, the inner state or the inner nature. So love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. You know, these kind of things you cannot really produce by motivational speeches, right? You know, I cannot produce love and joy in you by just encouraging you, hey, you know, you need to be joyful. You need to be joyful. You know that's not going to happen. So the only way is, you know, when we rest in Christ, when we take our eyes off of ourselves and, and keep our eyes on the cross, which is basically the love of God, right? When we understand how much God loves us, all these things come out of us. Joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. You know, I myself, in my experience, I have noted that when I Spend time in the Word. And when I spend time in the gospel and my heart is full of joy, it's much easier for me to be nice to people. But if I'm filled with condemnation and fear and, you know, beating myself up, I end up being more irritable. Right. If someone comes and asks me something, you know, hey, I'm already, you know, struggling with so many things, you know, you're adding more to my misery. But if you're full of joy, you know, it's so much easier to go and be gracious to people. And the only way we can have that is when we take our eyes off of ourselves and put it on our Lord Jesus Christ. [00:25:39] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely true. And that's one of the other points that came out of the last four episodes. And the way we put it is that when you think about the law, the law in itself is perfect. It's good. It's the covenant, the system of the law for earning righteousness that has been weakened by us. We can't do it. And when you think about the goodness of that law that God gave, it's a description of who, who Jesus Christ is. His heart, his values, the things that are true about him. And then when Christ came and actually took that good law and started to elevate it in his teachings, he would say, you've heard it said, don't commit adultery. He said, if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you've heard it said, do not murder. I say, if you're angry with your brother. He elevated that. And his teachings were an even purer and better and more powerful elevated description of who he is, his heart, his values. And then as you just listed, the fruits of the Holy Spirit, love, joy, peace, long suffering, those are all descriptions of Christ. So how can we think by our own effort that we can produce Christ in us through trying harder or for someone trying to motivate us to. To try to act more like Jesus? No, that's not the way. It's remaining in Him Himself, He Himself, Christ, in us, the hope of glory. That's the only hope we ever have of those things coming out of us, is by resting in him and him producing that in us and us bearing it as fruit. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark, in fact, I am looking up the Sermon on the Mount. You said that, you know, the law is good, but the Lord Jesus Christ elevated it to actually match it. You know, basically to say that he's not just talking about the external commandments, but he's talking about Himself, his nature, right? And then saying that you are not like me, and unless you become like me, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. In fact, when I'm looking up, I think in Matthew, chapter five, before he starts this, he says, except your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and scribes, you shall not enter the kingdom of God. Yeah, it is somewhere. I'm trying to look that up. But the point is, he's saying that, okay, you're thinking that this external keeping of the law is righteousness, but that's not the righteousness of God, right? You have to exceed that righteousness. Then he talks about his nature, because all these things are not in the law. Like, you know, if someone asks you to go for a mile, go two miles, right? If he asks for your outer, your cloak, give him other garment also. And if he slaps you, you know, just turn the other cheek. Only Lord Jesus Christ did all these things, if you think about it. Absolutely. And eventually it says, you know, be thou perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. And the only one who did that is our Lord Jesus Christ. So what he's saying is, you know, in order to enter the kingdom of God, right, in order to enter in heaven and have fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father, you need to be like me. And you are not like me, right? So. And the only way to be like me is, you know, your old man has to be crucified, and then you need to get a new life by being joined with me. So that is the gospel. And the purpose of the law is to show that, hey, you're not like Jesus, if you put it simply, right? And the only way to be like Jesus is to come to Jesus, you [00:29:34] Speaker A: know, Ajay, you just stole my thunder, man. I had that exact same thought. And I remember when I first heard this gospel truth, that when Jesus came, all his teachings weren't to come and start a new or higher religion, that we try even harder to do all the things in the Sermon on the Mount, but that they were really meant to elevate the law to make us even more conscious of sin so we would see our desperate need for a savior. At first, I'm like, wait, Jesus spent all that time doing all that teaching, and it was for that. But think about this. The way he summarized that Sermon on the Mount was he said, therefore, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. And I'll just ask you out there, listener, believer, or unbeliever, do you really think you can be as perfect as God? But the point is when he said that he's the only one who. Who is perfect, like his heavenly Father is perfect. And when he gives us that righteousness, his righteousness, then in God's sight, we become holy and blameless. [00:30:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Mark again, I think, you know, it's not like God is telling, hey, you know, if you become perfect, somehow you can enter heaven. You know, that's not the point. The point is, you know, the Bible says, all have fallen short, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. What it means is God created us for his glory. That's what the Bible says through the gospel, he saved us so that we can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So God created us for his glory. And unless we are like what he created us to be, we cannot have the life he meant for us, right? And we cannot have the fellowship with Him. So the Law and the Sermon on the Mount, everything is about saying that, hey, you know, you are not like what God created us to be. You are not. You don't have the glory that I created to give you or have you. So that's why, you know, In Matthew, chapter 5, verse 20, the verse that I was alluding to before, it says, for I say unto you that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. And what is the righteousness that exceeds scribes and Pharisees? That is the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ. He Himself becomes our righteousness, and that is our glory. And when we are joined to Christ, we are basically joined to God, and we have fellowship with the Father and the Son, and we enter into God's plan and purpose for our life to have that glory and live in that glory forever. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that was awesome, Ajay. And you said that you explained what the righteousness is that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and Sadducees. But so you can also ask your question, the question, what was their righteousness? Their righteousness was righteousness according to the law. And the apostle Paul told us in Romans that that kind of thinking is a stumbling stone. He said, what Then shall we say that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it? A righteousness that is by faith. But the people of Israel who pursued the law as the means of righteousness have not obtained their glory. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. And that is the heart of the thing Right there, that the only righteousness is the righteousness of God that we gain by faith. The righteousness of the Pharisees. That doesn't get you anywhere, because they have none, because they cannot. The standard of that law is not doing it well. It's doing it perfectly from birth to death. And I want to give you a couple scriptures here, Ajay, that I think really drive that home. In Galatians 5. Three, the apostle Paul says, again, I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised, and circumcision is one of the biggest points of the law. He says, anyone who lets himself be circumcised, that he is now obligated to obey the whole law. If you're going to live by the law, you have to do the whole law from birth to death. And then James, who was the Lord's brother in James 2:10, he takes the inverse way of teaching us that he says, for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. So if you want to add one point, well, then you have to keep them all. And if you break even one of them, well, now you've broken the whole thing. It's like a house of cards where you go on the bottom and you pull one card up and the whole thing tumbles in. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. In fact, you know, like we just discussed, right? If someone. If you can keep the whole law, right? Basically you are. Let me put it this way. We just said, right? Only Christ can keep the whole law. Basically, no one else can keep the whole law. Again, you know, it's pointing back to saying that, hey, if you were to keep the law, you must be like Lord Jesus Christ, otherwise you cannot keep the law. And real quick, Mark, you know, going back to your comment on the righteousness of the law by the Pharisees, or the righteousness of the Pharisees, Paul said, you know, he had that righteousness, right? If I were to go by the righteousness of the Pharisees, he says that he is probably better than all. In Philippians 3. 4, it says, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. What he means by the flesh is basically trying to earn righteousness by works of the law, though I might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I am more so circumcised on the eighth day of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews concerning the law, a Pharisee concerning zeal, persecuting the church, concerning the righteousness of the law, blameless. But what things were gained to me, those I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things. And I count them as rubbish that I may gain Christ. So I think, Mark, you kind of alluded to me, right? You know, before people can come to Christ, they have to come to the point where they consider all the things they tried to do to be holy, to be righteous, to qualify themselves for salvation, they have to count them as rubbish. And in other translations, it says count them as dung. So all the good works anyone is trying to do, they are like cow's dung, right? Cow's poop. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Let's watch your language there, Ajay. I'm going to have to bleep that out. [00:37:17] Speaker B: So until you realize that all your works are like that, you will have a hard time accepting grace, to be honest. And it takes the revelation of the Holy Spirit to bring people to that point. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Sure. So one of our conversations in the last four episodes that I really enjoyed, Ajay, was when you were sharing the story that happened in the Gospels of the rich young ruler coming to Jesus and saying, good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus answered him and said, keep all the commandments, you know. And he listed the commandments. And this young man said, all these I have done since I was a boy. Now, Jesus could have right then and there said, wait a minute, and named every sin he had ever done in his life and proved to him that he had not kept all the commandments. But instead of doing that, he went right to the heart of the matter and said, okay, then I want you to take everything you have, give it to the poor and come follow me, which, by the way, is not a condition of salvation. But he was trying to bring this young man to the end of himself to show him that he needed a savior. And, you know, I don't want to say we dropped the ball, Ajay, but when we were having that conversation, I think it was in episode two, I believe we stopped right there. And during this week, as I was out going for a walk, it occurred to me, wait a minute. I remember the rest of this story. So after Jesus, this account, Jesus said to his disciples how hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. A camel can go through an eye of the needle easier than a rich man can enter the kingdom of heaven. And he's just Telling them how hard it is. And they were astonished. And they said, well, then, who can be saved? And Jesus, foreshadowing what was about to happen on the cross and the resurrection, said, with man, this is impossible, but with God, all. All things are possible. So it is impossible for us to enter heaven by the things we do, to come into relationship with God by the things we do. But with God, it's not impossible because he came, paid the price, took our sin, gave us his righteousness, and then we died with Him. And then when he rose again, we rose with him to life. [00:39:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, if you, mark, like you said, you know, if people, if you misinterpret that account, you know, people might come to conclusions that, you know, it's hard for rich people to be saved because it's hard for them to give up their riches. As though you need to give up your riches to be saved. You know, again, putting all the way back under the law again, right? You know, now we have to give up everything in order for you to be saved. In fact, you know, there is this whole doctrine about denying yourself taking up the cross and all that. I think we can talk about that maybe sometime. But what's interesting in the passage is, right, you know, it almost sounded like it's hard for rich people to be saved. But like you said, you know, towards the end, it says it's impossible. It's not possible for man. It's not just for rich people. It's hard for rich people to be saved. Even the poorest guy on the planet, they cannot be saved on their own. It is impossible for anyone to be saved by ourselves or based on our works. But with God, it's possible through the cross. [00:41:03] Speaker A: That's a great point, Ajay, because I can see, and I think I probably did it in the past two years ago. I can see someone reading that and saying, oh, wow, this is about rich people. Those evil rich people, they can't get into heaven. No, the whole point is much larger than that. The whole point is that it's really, really, really hard, in fact, impossible for anybody, rich or poor, to get into heaven, apart from Jesus, because with us, it's impossible. With him, all things are possible. So what I thought we could do, Ajay, now there, as I listen to, you know, last four episodes we did, I like to listen to our podcasts after the fact when I'm out for a walk, just to listen to them and gain more insight from them and hopefully get some new ideas. But we had a lot of good A good. What would you call metaphors or illustrations that came up that I thought it might be good to kind of throw them together again. Once you tell. Why don't you re review your illustration about the dirt in the bottom of the glass just kind of further supporting the fact that the apostle Paul has not left it up to us. Whether we choose works or grace, those two can't be mixed together. It's one or the other. Why don't you talk about that? [00:42:24] Speaker B: Yeah. In fact, you know, Mark, I think it, you know, goes back to the example of the rich young ruler that you just gave. You know, from his perspective, he's thinking that he is keeping the law, right. He's doing pretty good as it comes to keeping the law. And he is thinking, yeah, all these things I have kept from the. From my childhood. And then therefore, I deserve heaven. But, you know, Lord Jesus Christ then showed him, hey, you know, if you really think you are keeping the law, then how about this, right? You know, give up everything and follow me. That's what it really means. If you were really keeping the law, you should be able to do it. You know, that is like stirring up, right, the dirt in us. So most of us, you know, it's like, you know, you have a glass of clean water, right? And it appears clean on the surface, but there is some sediment or dirt at the bottom. You know, looking from far, you know, you might think, yeah, it's clean water. You know, this guy's life is pretty good. But, you know, when you take a stirrer and stir up the dirt, you know, law is like that dirt, right. You know it. When you stir up the dirt, right. You know, then the water becomes dirty, right? You can see all the mud. So that's what happens, you know, people on the surface. You know, if you're still and you're not asked to do anything, you know, people might think, yeah, you know, I have a good life. But when the standard of the law comes and, you know, asks them to do something, even if not anything else, you know, what got Paul was, you know, yeah. You know, maybe outwardly he's doing everything, but the law also says, thou shall not covet. You know, when that law comes, when the stirrer comes with that commandment, thou shall not covet, then all the dirt will come up. Then the more you try not to covet, the more you will end up coveting. So that's what the Lord has. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Why don't you explain that? Because that's a biblical word, covet. What does covet Mean. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Coveting means you basically, you want to have something that belongs to someone else, like your neighbour's wife, neighbour's car. Right. Even though you don't physically go and take them, but you're still in your heart, you're desiring that. You know, I wish I had them. Or lusting after somebody, you know, that is coveting. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And the apostle Paul said, if it wasn't for the law telling me not to covet, I wouldn't have even known what that was and realized I was doing it, which is stirring up that glass again. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, again. You know, the whole point is not about, okay, you know, God gave us a law to make us feel bad and, you know, we are having a good life, and now the law comes and then, you know, makes us miserable. That's not the point. The law is like a diagnosis. Like we said, if some cancer is hidden in the body, it's not showing any symptoms, but you still have cancer, you know, one day it's going to get you. So law is like a diagnosis. Right. You know, it not only shows that, hey, you have something wrong. It's not just the diagnosis, it also shows us the cure for that. Law shows that, hey, you know, you have something wrong, but I also have the cure. That cure is the Lord Jesus Christ. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. So one of my illustrations was that think of food and think of poison. As far as in terms of mixing the law and works and grace, which is the gospel, it doesn't take much poison in your food before you're going to either die or get very, very sick and be in misery. And that's what it's like trying to mix the law with the gospel. In fact, the apostle Paul tells us in Galatians that when you try to do that, it's a perversion of the gospel. He says, I don't care if an angel from heaven or even me, if I would start to preach a different gospel than the message of God's grace, let me be cursed. So it's not just a small thing for you in your relationship with Christ to bring your own works into it. It's like poison. Because the law and grace, if you think about it, it's like having two magnets and trying to take the positive pole on each magnet and push them together. They're repelling, they're going. They're pushing away opposite directions. And the harder you try to push those things together, all you're going to end up doing is getting worn out because they cannot go together. It's one or the other. And that's a perfect segue, Ajay, for your favorite scripture, that if I had a dime for every time I heard you speak on Romans 11:6, I'd be a wealthy man. Why don't you share that with us in the new King James version? [00:47:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Romans 11:6. And if it is by grace, then it is no longer of works. Otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace. Otherwise, work is no longer work. So, as we have talked several times, Mark, you know, like you said, they are mutually exclusive. It's one or the other. You know, in fact, you know, it's not. I'm. I'm just thinking it's not just about works, grace, works, grace. But in. The real implication is Galatians, chapter five. You alluded to this before as well. You know, Paul is very strict about this, right? You know, about not mixing works and grace. He says in Galatians, chapter five, starting from verse one, stand fast, therefore, in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Indeed, I, Paul, say unto you, if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace. So it's not. So it is, of course, you know, like law and grace, or works and grace are mutually exclusive. But the implication is that if you approach God based on works, you cannot have Christ. Everything Christ did for you, you cannot have it. That's what it says, right? Christ will profit you nothing. You know, all these people who are putting people back under the law, like the Christians who are saved by grace, what they're essentially doing is, you know, they are taking away the benefit of Christ from believers. Christ will profit you nothing if you approach him based on works. [00:49:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to repeat that in the NIV here. I think it bears repeating. He says. Apostle Paul says, mark my words. I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourself be circumcised again, one of the greatest points of the law. So, in other words, if you're going to bring in the law and try to live by it, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again, I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You are trying to be justified by the law and you have been alienated from Christ, you have fallen away from grace. So if you're trying to add works, you are falling away from grace. You can't stay in grace and just start bringing in that pull of the magnet and trying to force it in there and make it fit. And I think there are probably. Let's talk about the reasons why we think people might do that. I think one of those reasons is because that's what they've heard preached to them their whole life. Whether it's hearing somebody on TV or a pastor in their church or reading a book, it's just a matter of ignorance. And that to me, there's a difference between the gospel, the message of God's grace, Jesus Christ and him crucified, and the Christian religion. That's that mixture that's bringing in the rules, church rules, do this, don't do that. It's a performance mentality, self improvement. There are so many ways of describing it that go well beyond just people trying to add the Ten Commandments to their faith in Christ. I just think it's an ignorance of just the depth of the freedom that Christ has given us and the fact that walking in that freedom is the only way you're ever going to bear the fruit that God has prepared for you to bear. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark, I think it is primarily ignorance. That's why we need sound teaching in the church, focused on the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ. And in some cases I think it also has to do with self righteousness. And you get this bragging, right? So holier than thou. I don't do this, I don't do this, I don't do that. Going around judging people and becoming fruit inspectors. I think there is an element of, you know, for people who do not want to accept grace, you know, one of the reasons is, you know, it gives them the law, gives them the opportunity to boast, right? You know, even though it is all false boasting, but still it gives them the opportunity to boast. So some people want that as well. You know, that's why Paul is clear about saying that, you know, that no man can boast. It is all of Christ. So for some people, the self righteousness also hinders them from accepting grace, so to speak. [00:52:29] Speaker A: You know, what you just pointed out there about living under the law, how it leads to judging others, passing judgment on them. That reminds me, is it Romans where it says that we have died to the law with Christ? Well, it says we have died to the law so that we may belong to Another to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. And then there's another scripture Paul says in Romans where he says that those who live under the law, we bear fruit to death. And one of the fruits we bear when we live under the law is judgment. That's why you see, whenever there's some big natural disaster or you see Christians out there picking against whatever fill in the blank thing they're against, or if a hurricane hits, oh, that's God's judgment on this. That's a fruit of the law passing judgment. One other thought I had too, on that question about why do people try to add the law? One is ignorance. They think that's part of the gospel and the law is not part of the gospel. The gospel is the good news. The law is the context. It's the bad news that causes us to need a Savior. That law and original sin as well are both servants of the gospel that show us our desperate need for a savior. But I think there are people out there that think the message of salvation is too good to be true. Because it is the best news ever. It's the best offer ever, A free gift of wiping away every sin you've ever done, every sin you will ever do, giving you the riches of God's glorious inheritance. Just, it seems almost unbelievable. And so they try to add good works as an insurance, like just in case this isn't as good as it sounds, you know, it's like an insurance policy. Well, yes, I'm going to put my faith in Christ, but now I have to do good. I've got to add that as an insurance policy. And like I said earlier, Scripture says there's a way that seems right to a man that only leads to destruction. And the reason it leads to destruction is what Paul just told us is that because then we're obligated to. To follow the whole law, Christ will be of no value to us. We're alienated from and we fall away from grace. So it's not a neutral thing. It's not an insurance policy. [00:55:03] Speaker B: Yeah, Mark, totally agree with that. Did you have any other points? [00:55:07] Speaker A: No, I think we can wrap it up here. I think we've had a good conversation and once I edit it down, I think it'll not be too long for our listeners, hopefully. But you want to summarize, Ajay, and then I will. And then we'll. We'll lead our way out. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I think in terms of summary, what we have always been saying that is Christ is the gospel Right. And the Gospel is not just for salvation. It's even more once we are saved. And it's important to keep our eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ. And the teaching in the churches for the believers has to be full of our Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work. You know, that is the food for believers. You know, we can talk about what we have to do all day long, but indirectly, you know, you're putting people under the law. And law will, like you said, law will only bear fruit to death. So if you really wanted to bear fruit unto God, right? You know, like we just said, just read in Galatians, chapter five, if you go back to the law, Christ will profit you. Nothing. So if you want Christ to profit you, you should get out from under the law, understand that you are dead to the law, and you start just living by grace and trust God fully. That grace is enough. And his spirit is, is enough to bear the fruit in us. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, I want to summarize by reading a scripture. This is Titus 3, 4. And Titus was a young pastor that Paul had left in charge of one of the churches that he had started on a missionary voyage. And he's sending them. This is what's called one of Paul's pastoral letters. He's trying to train and teach pastors how to preach the gospel. And this is what Paul says. He says, when the kindness and love of God, our Savior appeared, he saved us not because righteous things we'd done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Listen to what he says here. And this is Paul, one of the most trustworthy people ever walked the face of this planet. He takes the time to say, this is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to. To doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. And my point with reading this scripture is there are a lot of pastors out there, small group leaders, believers, lay leaders, people that have good intentions. They want to see those that are under their care, that have put their trust in God. They want to see them being careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. What they miss is the how. So when Paul says, this is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to stress these things, he's saying, this is how you do it. If you want people to have good lives and devote themselves to doing what is good, here's how you do it, here's what you teach. Let's go back and look what he taught in that scripture. He taught that when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us not because because righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us by washing us with the Spirit of God. And it says he didn't just pour it out on us, he poured his spirit out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior. So that past tense having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs. What are heirs? Heirs are sons and daughters who inherit and we have the hope of eternal life. That's the message that pastors, that leaders, that people sharing the gospel are called to preach the love of God that is in Christ. It's the motivation behind everything is God loves us. In John 1 it says he's given us grace in place of grace already given because of his love and grace for all humanity. And that existed before Christ even came. That was the motivation for him to send Christ and pay the price for us. So we'd both like just ask you to meditate on these things. And don't just be in scripture, let scripture be in you. Take those scriptures, meditate, contemplate, ponder, reflect on them. And let the Spirit of God transform you into the image of Christ, Christ by His Spirit. So we hope you have a great week this week and we love you all and we will see you again the next time. We hope you were encouraged by today's discussion. If so, please subscribe and share with your family and friends. The unveiling podcast is available on most major podcast apps. Thanks for listening and we will see you again the next time. All my days, Lord, I will delight in you all the days of my life in you I will delight in you I will light you, I will la.